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	<title>Comments on: Mirror writing</title>
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	<link>http://LDBlog.com/2007/03/05/mirror-writing/</link>
	<description>News, commentary, and resources about Learning Disabilities</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 18:47:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: JohnL</title>
		<link>http://LDBlog.com/2007/03/05/mirror-writing/#comment-13505</link>
		<dc:creator>JohnL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Apr 2007 10:30:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://LDBlog.com/2007/03/05/mirror-writing/#comment-13505</guid>
		<description>Ms. Flohr, thanks for taking the time to review &lt;i&gt;LD Blog&lt;/i&gt; materials and to leave a comment. I'm sorry your daughter is having the difficulties you describe, but I'm glad you're seeking help. Of course, it is both difficult and inappropriate to provide professional advice based on Internet conversations, so I can't say much. 

I can observe, however, that when someone has practiced a behavior repeatedly, changing that behavior will require extraordinary amounts of practice. I don't have data on this, but I'd &lt;b&gt;guess&lt;/b&gt; that it takes somewhere between 20 and 200 corrected repetitions for each mistaken practice repetition; that is, if someone's practiced a mistaken behavior 15 times, it'll take something like 300 to 3000 correct practices to change it. And those correct practice trials will need to be spread over weeks with the trials intermixed with other correct responses. 

As you note&#8212;"Unless she is prompted to touch the first letter of the word"&#8212;there are some good techniques that can be used to help with the remediation. Getting the learner to initiate those prompts requires lots of careful work and practice. I'd be interested in studying whether one could develop a pretty-much foolproof prompt (e.g., pieces of paper with an array of fingerprints for the left hand near the top left of each page) and combine it with a heavily rehearsed verbal self-guidance routine ("O.K., I'm going to write. First I put the paper down with the fingerprints at the top, then I put my fingers on the prints to hold the paper, then I pinch my pencil between my thumb and first two fingers....") to modify writing behavior. In combination with the methods studied by Lahey and colleagues (see reference on page about correcting reversals), it'd be interesting to see whether handwriting improved over time. Of course, one would fade the prompts in some sensible way. (I once created dozens of cursive handwriting pages using a green dot to show the starting place for each letter, blue stippled paths for the letter shape, and red dots for the ending spot.)

Anyway, I hope you can get some help with your daughter's writing and reading. I agree that without remediation, there will be little progress. And remediation won't come easily after a couple of years of faulty practice. So, sooner is better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ms. Flohr, thanks for taking the time to review <i>LD Blog</i> materials and to leave a comment. I&#8217;m sorry your daughter is having the difficulties you describe, but I&#8217;m glad you&#8217;re seeking help. Of course, it is both difficult and inappropriate to provide professional advice based on Internet conversations, so I can&#8217;t say much. </p>
<p>I can observe, however, that when someone has practiced a behavior repeatedly, changing that behavior will require extraordinary amounts of practice. I don&#8217;t have data on this, but I&#8217;d <b>guess</b> that it takes somewhere between 20 and 200 corrected repetitions for each mistaken practice repetition; that is, if someone&#8217;s practiced a mistaken behavior 15 times, it&#8217;ll take something like 300 to 3000 correct practices to change it. And those correct practice trials will need to be spread over weeks with the trials intermixed with other correct responses. </p>
<p>As you note&mdash;&#8221;Unless she is prompted to touch the first letter of the word&#8221;&mdash;there are some good techniques that can be used to help with the remediation. Getting the learner to initiate those prompts requires lots of careful work and practice. I&#8217;d be interested in studying whether one could develop a pretty-much foolproof prompt (e.g., pieces of paper with an array of fingerprints for the left hand near the top left of each page) and combine it with a heavily rehearsed verbal self-guidance routine (&#8221;O.K., I&#8217;m going to write. First I put the paper down with the fingerprints at the top, then I put my fingers on the prints to hold the paper, then I pinch my pencil between my thumb and first two fingers&#8230;.&#8221;) to modify writing behavior. In combination with the methods studied by Lahey and colleagues (see reference on page about correcting reversals), it&#8217;d be interesting to see whether handwriting improved over time. Of course, one would fade the prompts in some sensible way. (I once created dozens of cursive handwriting pages using a green dot to show the starting place for each letter, blue stippled paths for the letter shape, and red dots for the ending spot.)</p>
<p>Anyway, I hope you can get some help with your daughter&#8217;s writing and reading. I agree that without remediation, there will be little progress. And remediation won&#8217;t come easily after a couple of years of faulty practice. So, sooner is better.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Ms. Flohr</title>
		<link>http://LDBlog.com/2007/03/05/mirror-writing/#comment-12442</link>
		<dc:creator>Ms. Flohr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Apr 2007 07:54:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://LDBlog.com/2007/03/05/mirror-writing/#comment-12442</guid>
		<description>Mr. Lloyd,
I am a primary school teacher.  While I agree that some reversals are normal, I disagree that MIRROR WRITING is normal for the English language.  I have interviewed O.T.'s and teachers and have come across only one person who has ever seen a student utilize mirror writing (other than as something for fun in the upper grades.)  

My daughter is 6yr. 10mo. and when writing independently (numbers &#38; sentences) everything is readable with a mirror.  She has been doing this for several years and it is impacting both L.A. and Math. She is frustrated by printed materials.  Unless she is prompted to touch the first letter of the word, she tries to read the word/ sentence from the right/ middle to left.  She is using Jan Olsen's Handwriting Without Tears, A.J. Kirshner's noitademeR of Reversals and various V.T. techniques.  

She has minor hearing concerns, minimal articulation challenges, has not set hand dominance, several vision processing concerns including difficulty crossing mid-line.  All work completed verbally is correct 85 to 97% depending on subject matter.  She is receiving O.T. and Speech therapy (&#38; knows Signed English), however, no one knows how to help her....  She is unable to keep up with her peers and retention is being considered.  

I am concerned that retention without remediation will be useless.  I  reviewed your suggestion, however this leaves me w/ only x, i, o, t, v, 1 and 8 that she can write readable (but formed R - L), however if I add formation as part of the criterion, then i and 1 are the only items she will be able to get right 90-95% of the time.  Do you have any other suggestions?
Ms. Flohr</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Lloyd,<br />
I am a primary school teacher.  While I agree that some reversals are normal, I disagree that MIRROR WRITING is normal for the English language.  I have interviewed O.T.&#8217;s and teachers and have come across only one person who has ever seen a student utilize mirror writing (other than as something for fun in the upper grades.)  </p>
<p>My daughter is 6yr. 10mo. and when writing independently (numbers &amp; sentences) everything is readable with a mirror.  She has been doing this for several years and it is impacting both L.A. and Math. She is frustrated by printed materials.  Unless she is prompted to touch the first letter of the word, she tries to read the word/ sentence from the right/ middle to left.  She is using Jan Olsen&#8217;s Handwriting Without Tears, A.J. Kirshner&#8217;s noitademeR of Reversals and various V.T. techniques.  </p>
<p>She has minor hearing concerns, minimal articulation challenges, has not set hand dominance, several vision processing concerns including difficulty crossing mid-line.  All work completed verbally is correct 85 to 97% depending on subject matter.  She is receiving O.T. and Speech therapy (&amp; knows Signed English), however, no one knows how to help her&#8230;.  She is unable to keep up with her peers and retention is being considered.  </p>
<p>I am concerned that retention without remediation will be useless.  I  reviewed your suggestion, however this leaves me w/ only x, i, o, t, v, 1 and 8 that she can write readable (but formed R - L), however if I add formation as part of the criterion, then i and 1 are the only items she will be able to get right 90-95% of the time.  Do you have any other suggestions?<br />
Ms. Flohr</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: JohnL</title>
		<link>http://LDBlog.com/2007/03/05/mirror-writing/#comment-9514</link>
		<dc:creator>JohnL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Apr 2007 10:49:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://LDBlog.com/2007/03/05/mirror-writing/#comment-9514</guid>
		<description>Thanks for reading and commenting. I hope your daugther's handwriting is improving.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for reading and commenting. I hope your daugther&#8217;s handwriting is improving.</p>
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		<title>By: CamiKaos</title>
		<link>http://LDBlog.com/2007/03/05/mirror-writing/#comment-8038</link>
		<dc:creator>CamiKaos</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Mar 2007 19:24:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://LDBlog.com/2007/03/05/mirror-writing/#comment-8038</guid>
		<description>I just saw this post and wanted to thank you, I am reading the reversals page you put up and I really appreciate it.  My daughter is still writing complete reversals at times but all we have to do is show her the correct side of the page and she's good to go.

I've found your blog very educational.

CamiKaos</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just saw this post and wanted to thank you, I am reading the reversals page you put up and I really appreciate it.  My daughter is still writing complete reversals at times but all we have to do is show her the correct side of the page and she&#8217;s good to go.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve found your blog very educational.</p>
<p>CamiKaos</p>
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